JAZZ AS A BUSINESS

An Interview With Marshall Lamm

by Alex Walsh

Recently, I had the opportunity to interview Marshall Lamm, the publicist at Yoshi's, the world-renowned jazz club in Oakland.

First, a little bit about Marshall: Marshall Lamm grew up loving jazz. (He plays bass, flute, and trombone.) In 1994, after college, he began working in the publicity department of Verve records in New York. He then became Director of Publicity for GRP Records, which housed the catalogs of Impulse, Decca, Commodore, and Chess records — to name a few. Later, he started his own label, Astor Place Recordings, which put out nine records, including the Grammy-nominated album "The Latin Side of John Coltrane" by Conrad Herwig. Marshall has been Yoshi's publicist since 1997.

What would be a good strategy for a local artist whose goal is to get a name and be able to play at a place like Yoshi's?

When we talk about local musicians able to play Yoshi's, you've got to look at someone like Ledisi, or Marcus Shelby. Those two musicians, in particular, sell tickets here at Yoshi's when they perform. Ledisi sells out both shows. Marcus sells a lot of tickets.

The thing about Marcus is, when he performs, it's a "Marcus Shelby Jazz Orchestra plays the music of Duke Ellington [production]." That concept allows articles to be written about it in the paper. It gives him an opportunity to go on radio stations and talk about this concept and this performance and the song book of Duke Ellington...What kind of "Duke" tunes is he going to do? It gives him an opportunity to get publicity for his show instead of it just being the Marcus Shelby trio playing originals, which [can be done] anywhere in the city.

The reason I use Marcus as an example is that he is someone who has really built up his reputation in the Bay Area — stretching the boundaries, doing concepts, doing recordings that are different from record to record, [and] aren't necessarily original music. That's not to say his original music isn't very good. I think it's amazing. But, if we're talking about selling tickets at Yoshi's, you've got to have something that the press can get into, radio can get into. You can do an in-store performance, it's just something different that you're not normally going to find his band doing.

Ledisi, on the other hand, is one of the strongest Bay Area jazz singers. When I say jazz singer, I use that [term] loosely with her and some other singers, but she puts on a hell of a show. She plays unique stuff. She has a great personality. She's bouncing off the stage. People love her. You want to see her again and again...So my advice would be, work on your live show, work on your banter with the audience, and put together a concept. Put together something unique and special before you ever try to get a gig here at Yoshi's — or a bigger venue.

If your record is not on KCSM, we won't book you — period. KCSM is one of the only jazz stations, 24 hours a day, in the world — not online. If they're not playing your record, it's going to be really hard for me to give tickets away on KCSM — or set up an interview on KCSM...

So, you have to think about it in a conceptual way...a performance way. That doesn't mean you've got to get up there in a suit and tie. It just means you've got to give the audience something for their money. You're selling yourself. You're selling your music. I know people have woodshedded all their lives to perform at the level they do, but it isn't easy. You've got to have your chops, but you obviously have to have your business chops as well.

What does it take for you to take a chance on a new name? Is it numbers? Is it your subjective opinion, or the bookers subjective opinion? Is it the whole picture?

It's a little bit of everything. We're in the artist development business as much as anything else, I think. People know that labels aren't taking a development approach to artists and their growth, but we do — and we have to because it's jazz. If you look at it from the perspective of five years ago — who was alive and could sell tickets versus now, who is alive and can sell tickets, their numbers are decreasing. With the passing [and aging] of a lot of the legends, it's more and more important now for there to be up-and-coming people that can do well in the future...

So, we do take risks sometimes with artists who we don't think will do very well [now]. But they have to do well in the future, so you've got to start somewhere. And I'm not talking Josh Redman, and I'm not talking Diana Krall. I'm talking the Gonzalo Rubalcabas of the world — those artists that are popular enough to do well business-wise here at Yoshi's, but [that] we might take a loss on. Because 25 years from now, those have to be the six-night guys — not only at Yoshi's, but at every jazz club around the world.

Is that an approach that you see other clubs taking?

A lot of the clubs book the same people...I can't speak for them, but I hope so. I sure hope Charlie Hunter can sell six nights at a jazz club 25 years from now. I really do...Nicholas Payton and Roy Hargrove and Danilo Perez — I could make a list of 150 people that, hopefully, will be able to stay consistent over their careers [so you don't end up saying], "What ever happened to so and so?"

I think the good old days of jazz are now, just as much as they were in the sixties. But those guys aren't going to be around forever, just like the Rolling Stones aren't going to be around forever. So who's going to be the next big thing? You've got to take chances on people, and stick with them, and stay with them — and take your losses if you have to. But in order for there to be a future of the music — especially from a live music standpoint — it's important to develop an artist...[the way to do this] in the Bay Area, you have to keep them out of the market for awhile and have them come back and do something special. And they have to be doing that year after year after year.

What is "off the market" enough?

If you're talking local musicians, I'd think, get the gig where you can get the gig. If someone's going to just pay you to play, that's cool. But if you're going to go someplace where there is a ticket, it might be a good idea to not play for a couple months, or if you do play for that ticketed event, it's much different than the gig you just did at Bruno's on Thursday night. It's a totally different thing. I mean, just in terms of the numbers and the ticket price. It's hard when someone plays four or five times a year in the Bay Area. They might play San Jose, Oakland, the Mystic in Petaluma — and then come into San Francisco. You run into the problem of "Who's going to come see you?...(And) can those people afford to see you as many times as you're coming into the area?"

People ask me all the time, "Is the Jazz Festival competition for Yoshi's?" No. Competition for Yoshi's is sitting home watching TV. Going to the movies. Going to have sushi some other place. The music isn't a competitive thing. What's competitive about it is [having the same] artist play Monterey in September, the SF Jazz Festival in October, Yoshi's in February, a one night gig at Justice League, the Jazz Festival spring series, and Zellerbach in August...He's in the market six times in a twelve month period. It's way too much.

This artist isn't a household name. If you walk up and down Market Street and stop a hundred random people, I'd bet one person might know who that artist is...If you ask (this person) how many times (in a year) she can afford a $26 ticket to see him (the artist), what's her answer going to be? So, if you take that one person and spread her six ways over six gigs, how many people are you going to get at any of those gigs? But, if he (the artist) plays the Jazz Festival in September, and then comes back and does Yoshi's in April, he has a better chance. Still, it's not the best chance, but it's better than him playing four or five times in the market and not necessarily doing anything special. People may enjoy his music and love his personality, but if you go down a notch or two in terms of popularity, it's really hard (to promote)"

So, if you're a Bay Area musician, you need to practice, you need to hone your live act, you need to play the little small places — and then, it seems like you need to go on the tour that's going to get you into the different markets, and play those different markets once a year...then, hopefully the venues will get bigger.

Look at someone like Will Bernard. He's a perfect example of what I'm talking about. He plays a lot, but he is able to tour. He has been able to associate himself for years now, and it's starting to really pay off in the whole jam scene. He's now a big hitter, and he can sell tickets around the country. He's a Bay Area guitar player, [but when] he goes to New Orleans, he can play six gigs and do extremely well.

Do you think this is something that people can actually have a strategy for?

Sure. Sure. I think you have to have a strategy. It can't just be, "Whatever sticks is what I'm going to do." You've got to have your vision. You've got to be able to work your vision. I think musicians should take any gig they can get, but you don't want to gig yourself out of a market. It's hard. You're playing every night, and then one night you need 250 people to show up. They just saw you for half the price at this other place!

So, do you see a lot of people playing a lot of gigs locally and then doing the one big gig in Seattle or LA?

Yes — well, big in relation to the Bay Area, maybe. Yes, I think people can go out and say, "I played Yoshi's. I sold 350 tickets. I can sell that in your venue." And they'll call us and ask if it's true. And we'll say, "Yes." And they'll get the gig. And hopefully they get 250 people to show up. But again, I do think, like anything in life, you've got to have a plan. You've got to be able to work your plan and plan your work. Because if you don't do that — and you sit around and you bitch about it — you know what I mean? It's like anything. I think you've got to have a life plan if you're an artist — I really do...And you have to have a manager, maybe. Not someone who is necessarily taking a percentage, but someone you can bounce ideas off of...[to get] an outside perspective...Who do you perform to? How do you grow your audience? How do you get bigger and be able to keep doing those gigs? I keep telling people, when you make a CD, you should do everything to give yourself a better opportunity to be successful [enough] to make another CD. It's not about selling out...It's about being able to live another day and not have to get a day job...You've got to be able to make another CD.

You know, if anybody played with the Grateful Dead, they should be doing Grateful Dead tunes. That's how people know who you are. It [makes it] easier to do the whole circuit. Say, "You know I played with the Dead. My new record has a couple Dead tunes on it. I've got Hornsby playing on a track." You know what I'm saying?

Like David Murray. I put out a record of his — the Grateful Dead record he did in '96. And he was able to get gigs all over the country — outside of the typical David Murray venue — because he played with the Dead, and he was doing Dead tunes. Obviously, David didn't continue to do that, but he was able to see he could do a little more of the liberal arts college scene rather than (just) the fringe jazz club places. Like Will Bernard. I'm sure now he's going to have special guests on his record...Karl Denson might play on his record. So he's growing it in that scene, which I think is one of the most viable scenes out there right now.

The Jam Band.

Totally, totally. That, and the Great American Song Book is making a comeback.

Interesting.

Yes. You heard it here first. The people who do really well here at Yoshi's are the people who do the Songbook.

So the whole cabaret scene — that's blossomed...

Yes. I see it getting bigger and bigger...because, you've got to remember, there are a lot of people out there in the world that aren't under 30. You know what I mean? That are over 50 — that harken back to the good old days. And the good old days, to some, included Frank Sinatra...

There's a new jazz club in The Cannery in San Francisco. And Pearl's is going to re-open. Do you think there is room in the Bay Area for more big jazz clubs?

Yes. I just hope that people have a plan. That they (the owners) understand you're going to lose your money...I mean, Yoshi's loses money.

But not every night.

Not every night. But you've got to be prepared to lose money every night — even if you get a big name person. If the ticket price is too high, parking's terrible, it's raining, you have Survivor on TV, it's hard...You've got to have everything lined up perfectly. The food has to be good, the service has to be good — good parking, good information. Those guys need to be prepared to lose money right off the bat — those venues in particular. If you're going to rely on local musicians, you can't expect 250 people to show up to see a local artist every week. They have to have some concepts, they have to have some occasions, some special events, [first time] teaming of certain musicians.

I wish them the best of luck. The Bay Area needs as many people involved in Jazz as possible. I mean, we're in Oakland. I hope there's a place in San Francisco that people can call their own, aside from the Jazz Festival.

People ask me this all the time, "So what's going to save the music industry?"...[I say] all the money people are saving from downloading music, they need to go support live music. They need to use that money to buy tickets — and merchandise when they go to the shows — because otherwise, 10 to 15 years from now, it may be hard to be able to "live" anybody. Live cabaret, live performance, theater, dance — you name it. People have got to keep going out to live music and support these new venues — because you're supporting the culture of the Bay Area. And the scene. There's got to be a scene...

Do you think you have anything else to say?

I think it's great that you came out to talk to me. I certainly hope you're talking to a lot of other people to get a lot of other perspectives about jazz and local musicians. You know, I hope people just stay with it and just keep working. Because there is hope...there is always hope. And you've got to have hope...and patience, and you've got to just keep going. Some gigs are going to be better than others, and some opportunities will be more easily determined than others, but you've got to just stick with it. I mean, you're not going to get rich in jazz no matter what you do. So you either play at Yoshi's or you play at Enrico's, but it's still jazz music and you've got to stick with it — and, hopefully, make a little money doing it to keep you from having to work a day job, 'cause that's not fun. I just think that people need to have some idea of the business side of the music so they don't feel slighted when someone says, "Well, you know, you can't sell those tickets."

Right.

You can't take it personally. You've got to take a step back and ask, "Now why are they saying that to me?" And take constructive criticism, and not let it beat you up...just stay focused. It's not easy...No one said it was going to be easy, so don't have any illusions of it being easy, because it's not. You'll just get frustrated and bitter.

Postcript

At the conclusion of the interview, I turned off the tape recorder. As I was packing up, Marshall dropped another pearl of wisdom, emphasizing the importance of being polite. In fact, he said that the most important thing you can do is to send a thank-you note — if a reviewer writes about your CD, if you're booked to play a gig at Yoshi's. Even if the turn-out was low, send a note saying that you hope the next time will be better. Thank-you notes are rarely received, and highly appreciated, in the music industry. But, no matter what hat we're wearing in this business, we're all just people trying to get along. So, make an inexpensive investment in your career. Buy a small box of cards and some stamps. And the next time someone gives your career a boost, use them. E-mail is okay, too.

I'd like to thank Marshall for sharing his expertise with our Local 6 membership.

Aug. 27, 2003

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